Photo recycled from Pinterest.
Due to a couple breeders attempting to slander and harass us because they are so upset over a page that tries to help buyers stay safe, Fall 2022 when we have time we will share some of these names and their despicable messages right on this web page!
WE WILL DO EVEN MORE TO HELP PEOPLE STAY SAFE AND AWAY FROM SCAMS & BAD BREEDERS, IT IS OUR MISSION!
We truly need to do more information sharing and posting more stories here & will do our best to help out.
Even recently an experienced breeder was scammed by another breeder and some of the information below could have helped her out.
Distinguish a Reputable Breeder- how to ask questions like,
Are your kittens raised in cages ( We understand for their safety they WILL need to have some restrictions & it is completely normal and reasonable for them to be kenneled for short periods of time ... especially while learning to use the litter box, However if the environment is so small they can not run & play like they are Meant to... Problems may follow: Behavior problems, neuromuscular atrophy, bone & joint weakness along with poor development ..... just to name a few things. The growth is happening so fast in this first year, the first 4 months before they get to you is VERY important.
Ask, How do you socialize your kittens?
OMG!!! I am SHOCKED by the amount of reports of Feral cats that are being adopted from cat breeders! This is a Very bad sign that your kitten had very little one on one human and lap time.... this scared behavior can last a lifetime.
Do they go to the vet for health exams & vaccinations? Do you have records of fecal testing? ASK the breeder what it would cost if they could take your kitten to the vet at least twice before adoption???? This way when you are spending $1,000 - $2,000 on a kitten, you will have a vet record!
We genuinely LOVE cats with our heart and soul & want cats to be raised in better environments & the only way to do that is to educate buyers to expect higher standards!
Please keep reading..........Ask, Are your cats raised in your home? Could you please send me pictures of my kitten playing inside your house? Could you please send me two 30 second videos of the kitten playing with you before I make a deposit (This is VERY helpful to ask for specifics to be sure you are not getting scammed on a fake kitten!!!!!). If the kitten is too young yet to play, still ask for Specific video of the breeder holding him or her! When you ask for specific things early on you will then be assured some scammer did not steal another breeder's pictures off the internet.
Note: When you ONLY see close ups of kittens or physically see them pictured only in cages....do NOT be afraid to ask for different video!
One breeder we looked up to because he won big at shows & was always featured in magazines and had all these perfect photos , Now we see things differently. We have now spoken to 8 people who have adopted Very sick and frequently feral cats for this man. He is also telling his customers NOT to take his kittens to a vet if they get sick, but in stead to treat them with off the market back door antibiotics. OMG! WTF is going on & why are people accepting this. Two of our kittens have gone into homes with poorly socialized cattery cats with the hope they will teach them to trust and love again by example.
Not doing your homework can cause financially and emotionally ruin. We want to help people find responsible breeders, avoid scams, purchase healthy kittens, and ultimately help cats and kittens live better lives in catteries.
Cats too easily fall victim of people thinking they have space, time , & money to breed & the poor cats end up in tiny cages with towels or nothing to relieve themselves on, half starved, and high kitten mortality rates because the breeder can't afford to take them to the vet.
We believe if you are paying 1K-$2,000 for a pet, The cat/ kitten Damn well better come with a health record From the Vet! All vaccinations, & health warrantees . The cat had better be registered or you are asking for an inbred cat!
The breeder should be proud to share the parents registration papers. Is the breeder's name on the papers as the owner? How old is the breeding cat? ASK THE QUESTIONS!
THIS IS GOING TO BE YOUR CAT. Genetic testing is never a 100% guarantee of perfect health... but it certainly lets you know you are purchasing an actual Purebred, you will know your pet is PRA negative ( you hope) & you will have a host of additional information from your responsible breeder.
If these Bad breeders think for one moment they can bully us from posting this information , They are sadly mistaken. If a breeder is truly doing a good job, NONE of this information... Zero of it should be upsetting. Some of this information is taken from research, some from direct owners and victims of fraud or negligence, and some from KMC's.
Beautiful & healthy cats are raised in a multitude of environments ! Just because they are raised differently , does Not make anyone right or wrong. We just ask people/buyers to think about what is reasonable and transparent & always get a Good bill of sale.
NEW INFORMATION 03/20/2022 editing . Information here is based on suggestions, real experience, and general information to try to help people avoid a heart ache and financial pitfall. Each individual must do their own homework and what is right for them. Please feel free to email us and let us know if we have helped you or if you would like to see more information.
New Scams we have recently heard breeders do.
Couple new heartless breeders we have heard about on several accounts and now someone with first hand pictures. Proof of these conditions brought us to action to document it here. If you get ripped off or find a scam not documented herein, please email or message us. By Continuously insisting on better standards, not buying from negligent breeders, means that cats and kittens get better treatment from their breeder! It is in inadequate, broke & cramped for space, selfishly ran catteries that cats & kittens suffer the most. This will NOT exist if you are not buying from them!
One breeder in Canada that has a named cattery( If you do your homework you will not fall prey to these people) has been doing repeat breedings to their queen within WEEKS of giving birth and then re-bred to her BROTHER before the current litter is even weaned! THIS IS DISGUSTING !!! NONE of the kittens are registered for obvious reasons. TICA & CFA will not let a breeder register a new litter that has less than 3 months in-between litters. If you think buying a unregistered purebred is not a priority because you will never show.... THINK AGAIN! Inbred cats this close will likely have a host of problems Not to mention you are supporting HEARTLESS breeder behavior by purchasing these kittens... even for that bargain $500. Price. People think they are Saving the kittens.... SERIOUSLY.... unless you are getting them through a welfare animal neglect bust, you are not doing this breed any favors. Do Not Support breeders like this! These cats had a small caged dark corner of the home with no window. If this breeder can not sell kittens, they will to breed anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOW BUYERS START OFF ON THE WRONG FOOT.... Right in the beginning I see people on Facebook group ask for references. Though all of us breeders LOVE kind words, I will still ask you to do your homework. Some of theses kitten breeding rings that involve 2 or 3 breeders doing negligent breeding, will pat each other on the back publicly and make recommendations for each other when indeed.... they are selling kittens with terrible contracts & no warrantees which means they will not be heald responsible for any wrong actions! If you are buying in the US, Get a Warrantee! A warrantee overseas would be nearly impossible to enforce.
Check status of borders during Covid & how much it will cost for transportation before putting that deposit down! We have had 4 people contact us about the same breeder asking for half or full price and the buyer can not get their kitten transported. You MUST have a contract that states what happens if transportation is not available. Do NOT give the breeder full price till you know you can transport the cat or kitten. This breeder turns around and sells your kitten to another person who runs into the same problem. This breeder is know to just have kittens sitting around. Request in a bill of sale veterinarian receipts for vaccinations! Even call the vet the cat is being seen by!!!! If the cat is found sick in the first 72 hours who pays?
Don't think you are SAVING kittens from bad care, many people don't realize they are just keeping bad breeders in business.
Another Scam we have seen is a breeder telling the buyer a PayPal Deposit IS the contract. PLEASE understand these people desperate to pass off sick cats without any responsibility do not want to write contracts because they know that holds them responsible. Get a contract!
When the kitten is ~ 6 weeks old ask the breeder to send you a 30 second video of your kitten playing with them. This will give you an idea if they are getting socialized. Getting a kitten with no socialization sets a life long stage:( If the breeder starts coming up with days or weeks of excuses for not having time, this is a bad sign!
Ask the breeder for 30 seconds once a week of video. We love pictures but get a good look at the face and eyes. Don't forget you are the customer. Bad breeders or breeders hiding something will Not want to do any of these things for you, especially video!
First & foremost. Our intention is not to put good breeders out if they give their own vaccinations for cost control, sell kittens with or without contracts, raise world class show cats, or responsibly raise kittens that are never shown. It is the buyers discretion & we are primarily trying to help people NOT get scammed. Even well respected people in the cat world ( that you would never expect) have been charged with animal neglect.
Just because someone is Admin of a Facebook group we still want you to do your homework! Good breeders do not need to fish their FB group for sales!
What is in the background of those cat and kitten photos? Does the breeder just say raised underfoot, or are they Really raised underfoot?
This page is SUGGESTIONS TO TRY TO KEEP YOU SAFE & MAKE MORE INFORMED CHOICES.
**** PLEASE FEEL FREE TO EMAIL OR MESSAGE US TO ADD TO THIS LIST! LET US KNOW IF YOU SUPPORT OUR MISSION TO EDUCATE BUYERS WITH THE GOAL TO MINIMIZE SCAMS & NEGLECTFUL CATTERIES. .
Here are several subjective & objective suggestions to try to stay away from scammers and neglectful breeders. Some of this information is from us directly, some from on-line, and from people like you.
FIRST!!!!!!! ******* Google the breeders name & cattery!
Look up their Facebook and review “friends” or look up the friend’s profile to see if they even have cats. Scammers normally do not have a friend list that has tons of friends that have cats!. They also have few friends listed and generalized photos. Most cat people have several cat pictures in their facebook feed.
(OSH) ORIENTAL SHORT HAIR cats & kittens are extraordinary family companions with love to go around. Recently, Orientals have gained popularity due to their striking appearance unique markings & near hypoallergenic coats. The cost of a Oriental is not a cheap investment when buying from a responsible breeder. Scammers & negligent back yard breeders know the market for Orientals and use this to attract eager adopters. There are key risk factors and indicators that a bad actor is looking to execute a scam.
OBTAIN RECENT PICTURES AND VIDEOS.
Ask for something specific.
A scammer rarely takes or provides frequent pictures. Be sure the pictures are the same kitten! ASK for a short video , face & profile pictures.
They will often steal photos from legitimate sites and Facebook groups. Weekly media is not too much to ask. Analyze the living conditions and background.
Check for watermarks. Smart scammers will scrub the EXIF data from a photo. Another way to ensure a genuine photo is ask for a picture of the kitten with the current date written in the photo on a sheet of paper, especially when importing!
Red flag is asking for a photo and the breeder requires a week to respond. 1-2 days is reasonable. Breeder that behaves like your asking for too much, can be a red flag. Asking for pictures and information, especially Up Front should be expected!!!
See if the breeder is a real company or person on Facebook or other social media platforms. Scammers often use fake names and pictures. If the social profile is new with a low number of friends, it could be a scammer!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Breeder ads should have a professional website or facebook accounts.
Ask the breeder for 3 or 4 references, including pictures of successful adoptions. A good breeder will be TICA or CFA registered cattery.Heck look to see if you have facebook friends in common. .
APPLICATION PROCESS AND CONTRACT
Many breeders will have some kind of an application process or even a waiting list. Scammers just want a fast sale!
A contract should be produced that contains health, financial, adoption, NO declawing, and food preparation procedures. Be aware of kittens that are listed for too good to be true prices such as $500.00. The cost may be enticing but it is nowhere near the cost to raise a kitten. The low selling price is lure for eager buyers. Backyard breeders seldom get vaccinations done and seldom complete genetic testing. This low price could come back to haunt you with life limiting illness, PRA blindness, etc…. Incapable breeders seldom use cat litter, cats pee & poo on rags or nothing at all. When the kitten arrives in your home and uses your bed as a litter box, You have not done your home work.
We don't recommend paying via western union or money gram. Once the money is sent, there is no way to retrieve it. Submit payment using PayPal, credit card, or any electronic payment that has dispute resolution services. Never pay for the entire balance for a kitty all at once. Scammers will often want full payment in one transaction.
KITTEN HEALTH CHECKS
Ensure all vaccinations are done BY THE VET. Genetic testing of BOTH parents is done & guaranteed in writing &/or offered proof .***** We will include a copy of Optimal Selection and Base Paws test result so you can see the multitude of great health testing that is included. One clear or recessive PRA test result is just part of the health picture. A kitten should see the veterinarian before pickup and delivery. A responsible breeder will seldom let a kitten leave before 14-16 weeks. Scammers want to sell ASAP. A kitten needs to be correctly weened and healthy enough to undergo significant change in its new environment.Weaning 2 days before placement can be hard on the kitten! We understand that taking all kittens to the vet is expensive for breeders & many breeders want to give their own vaccinations.... the fact is you never have proof the vaccinations were given or even given correctly.
Vaccinations given incorrectly can cause cancerous tumors or cause SERIOUS illness & or injury to that tiny kitten.
We ( Know More Cats) were scammed by a breeder in Michigan that bred for 20+ years & she gave her own vaccinations and proceeded to put on the bill of sale that they were given. When the kitten arrived he became so sick he required 3 emergency vet visits and nearly died. My vet and I decided to have Titers done to see if the kitten had antibodies to the supposed vaccinations given & the kitten's test indicated that he likely had NEVER been vaccinated! She lied! We then vaccinated the kitten ( once he was well enough) and did another Titer 3 weeks after the vaccination and the kitten showed to have a normal immune response & antibodies present. We spent $2,200 in vet bills in 90 days of receiving the kitten. Our advice is Do your homework and insist Basic needs are met by a licensed veterinarian.We acknowledge problems can happen if given by the Vet or by the Breeder.
Here is more great information:
Before you buy a kitten, it is very highly recommended that you find a highly reputable breeder. Before you can trust what a breeder is telling you, you need to have evidence that you are dealing with a good breeder by knowing good questions to ask & having the resources to do it Right. You may want to know that you are dealing with a real person, not a scam. You need to know you are NOT dealing with someone who falsely took a pet intended for spay/neuter and are now using them as a breeder. Why is this bad? The pet cat could be a carrier of genetic disease and likely has never been tested, is not registered AS A BREEDER with Breeding rights, the kittens can never be registered, breeding rights were stolen! The kittens do not carry breed standards meant for breeding and thus will pass on unwanted traits, that breeder is committing fraud as they Never had permission to breed the cat in the first place. This behavior is what fuels shoe-string back yard breeding. If you love your purebreds, do Not support this behavior
use caution with breeders that excessively trash talk all other breeders.
Some questions to ask may be,. "What is your experience in breeding" rather than ,"How long have you been a breeder"? I personally got scammed the worst by a breeder breeding for over 20 years. She was only out for a sale with Zero care for the cats. Number of years breeding does not guarantee quality! Do Not let a breeder tell you that you don't have the right to ask questions because they have been breeding cats for 10,20,30 years.
If you are dealing with a breeder that has only been breeding for 1-2 years, this does not mean you should not buy kittens from them. Ask them who their mentor is & for references. Even a breeder breeding for 2 years will have references.
Champion lines are nice, but not necessary for a pet. This is about Red Flags and not getting scammed.
While the number of years as a breeder gives you clues about a breeder's experience, they can still raise both healthy and unhealthy cats.... however they SHOULD have Lots of references after that many years. Look at the breeder's friends on Facebook that might have cats in their profile. Are some of those people also on your friend list??? ask them about the breeder. Testimonials are great, but I like to ask other people/ friends for character references. Breeders seldom ever post bad testimonials! The breeder that ripped me off had glowing reviews on Her website.
How many cats do you raise per year?
Breeders who raise a couple litters at a time are likely to spend more time with the kittens & spend very valuable time socializing them.
Do you participate in cat shows?
Reputable breeders usually show to prove and assess breed standard & as a way of learning more about cats and legal issues in the industry, as well as to enhance their reputations. Trophies do show that cats are of a high quality, but be leery of a breeder who takes more interest and pleasure in the trophy collection than the individual cats.
What method of genetic testing do you do?
A breeder ought to be able to come up with most of this information off the tip of the tongue. It helps if you have studied ahead and know good question to ask. Remember, you are looking to see that you do not get Scammed. Breeders are human!!!! Scammers will feel artificial, defensive with questions, or answer questions you did not even ask.... almost like it is rehearsed.
Look up Wisdom Health OPTIMAL SELECTION, recommended by the largest cat registry in the world, TICA. Ask the breeder to share test results or if the breeder will place in their contract that the cats tested are: (ARI) Autosomal recessive inheritance: Negative / Clear/ or at risk. Any cat that tests (ADI) Autosomal dominant inheritance & is a carrier or at risk is at High risk for passing poor genetics to your kitten. If this happens to be 2 parents with PRA that are carriers, they should NOT be breeding these two cats together. Understand genetics, ask Your Own Vet! An ARI recessive carrier breeding to a Clear/Negative cat will Not pass on a condition that is ADI. ***** Example, recessive PRA female breeding to a Clear/Negative male will not pass on genetics to CAUSE blindness. The kitten may be a recessive carrier, however will not have 2 PRA genes. Breeders that say for their BREEDING cats, " The parents were tested ". NO NO NO! Not good enough! Breeding cats must be tested themself. I purchased 2 siblings from 2 cats that supposedly were negative PRA. One kitten was negative and the other (ARI) PRA carrier! If I did not test then I would start risking passing this trait on to future kittens.
Know More Cats will post a complete copy of a test from both Optimal Selection and Base Paws. It ONLY COST APROX. $100.OO FOR ONE OF THESE TESTS. THE BREEDER CAN'T AFFORD NOT TO DO THIS on Breeding Cats! Only testing for PRA leaves kidney, heart, etc... out. Saying that the parents tested negative for conditions does NOT OMIT TESTING BREEDING CATS.
Ask you breeder if they socialize to other adult cats. Dogs? Kids?
A Summary of Bad Breeder Tendencies You Can Spot
Defensive with questions. Does not have parents Reg. papers or photos.
Ignorant of a breed's genetic defects
Has too many breeds and too many cats in a small space. Does the breeder have 15 breeders & live in a single wide?
Brags a lot about titles, discourages questions. Talks over you.
Says only negative things about all other breeders
Breeder isn't concerned about what kind of home you'll provide for the kitten
Makes excuses for a lot of things, even when no excuse is necessary
Charges overly high prices for pet quality kittens based on the color of their coats, or the size of the kitten's body. Generally, only a cat up to the show standard is worth more than a standard pet price for it's breed and class. Standard Oriental pet prices for pet cats without show qualities in 2020 ranged ~ $1,000 - $1,500. Show & Breeding cats can cost up to $2,000- $3,000! No one should be spending $2,500 on Pets form overseas with no proof of genetic testing, high likelihood of Tritrichomonas (nearly impossible to cure & highly contagious), potential fraud. We have found some Brokers worse than the breeders themself. Willing to place young kittens at any risk to make the sale. ************ So so many people are shown a couple photos of a beautiful kitten, & something entirely different arrives.
Ask the breeder if they will do a PCR test on your kitten or a group kitten fecal. Possibly offer to pay for half. This test is ~ $200!
This protects both the breeder and you because then you know for sure if the kitten is coming with parasites. Corona Virus is a tough one! This virus can live for a long time in the environment. Many many cats have corona virus and end up just fine, however ~ 3% turn into FIP :(
I have had cats so long I know I would still buy a cat with corona virus ( we are not talking Covid 19) , however it is just nice to know what a breeder is selling. Many people do not realize their cat at home may have this virus. It is the young cats under 2 that are most at risk of FIP. Talk to you Veterinarian!!!! Don't just rely on a FB group for your medical info. ** Beware of Tritrichomonas!!!! it is so hard to treat and many imported cats come with it. Diarrhea does NOT need to be present, however is frequently a symptom. It is highly contagious & many vets still do not fully understand it. This is fairly new to the US. Only PCR testing will discover this protozoan parasite. It is now found all over the world. Some vets are now telling people that the cat may just have to live with it forever because cure is rare.
You've probably heard of puppy farms, but did you know the same thing can happen with cat breeders? Over the last year, several kitten farms have popped up on the internet. Beware, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
I was recently told & have within an email that TICA does not have a minimum space standard for a cat in a cattery. People need to let TICA know this is not ok. Poor cats are caged in tiny cages for years in-slaved. This hurts our heart.
Ask your breeder how many litters their cats have before retiring or How old are their breeding cats? You will KNOW the age when you ask to see the registration papers of the parents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you are a cat lover you must understand that a 6 year old breeding female is Too old.... this is sad. We start breeding between 1-2 years of age and spay/neuter ~ 3-4 years of age. The breeding cat has earned their right to be a pet... not enslaved! No breeder should be breeding females under 10 months of age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A kitten farm is one that all they are truly interested in is the money! They are wonderful con artists! They will sometimes VOMIT INFORMATION and talk so fast you never get a question in. They harm the breed standard and profile. They harm the reputations of good, ethical breeders. They harm all of us. Defenseless kittens die when you give sales to these breeders. Do not fall pray to think you are saving the kittens. There are truly lots of great good hearted breeders out there doing it for all the right reasons. If you take your time, you will find them.
Clues to know a kitten farm / kitten mill/ Broker
Sells several different breeds of cats.
Sells pets without Spay or Neuter !
Will claim champion without having showed themselves.
Not interested in bettering the breed, or genetic improvement of health for the breed.
Gives breeding rights on PETS ( VERY VERY BAD) , not concerned with the breeding population.
Charges by the color, not the quality or genetic health breed into the breed
Sells UN-accepted breeds (breeds are not approved due to genetic faults behind them that have not yet been cleared.) example, OSH crossed with Maine Coon cat. Might look cool but health issues are unknown with the cross. Likely the breeder does not own 2 of the same purebred and are just looking for sale.
Sells in large scales and has lots and lots of kittens all the time.** Great breeders do not have lots of kittens just waiting for homes.
Kitten farms and kitten mills do not know the genetics and lines behind the cat. This can result in a cat in it's maturing years dying short lived, or on lots of medication, or not socialized as he/she could be. Some of these cons supply pet stores and labs. Please do not support them. They need to stop breeding . What condition do you really think the adult cats live in? Not good!
And please don't support a kitten farm based on their marketing and price. This doesn't make them less of a kitten farm; it just makes them MORE of a con artist stealing your money! It isn't ethical to sell a pet kitten for $2000 or more. GET to KNOW your breeder.
BACK YARD BREEDERS: Sometimes, a back yard breeder simply just doesn't know any better and needs to be educated. These people tend to advertise on Craig's list for low prices.
Lastly, sick breeders also known as hoarders. They are obsessed with cats and end up with way too many, to the point where they cannot find homes for their kittens. We actually found a prosecuted TICA judge charged with neglect & hoarding! This breaks our heart is so many ways. They become collectors and usually have anywhere from 50 and up cats, usually from 1-3 breeds. Most often they do not want you to visit them ever, and will make arrangements in the PetSmart parking lot down the street from their house (they love to puff themselves up too). They will always have a sincere excuse as to why the cat is dirty and/or sick! Again, beware! If the breeders cats are sick, why? if they are dirty, why? Too many to handle is normally the answer! Cat disease and filth spreads like wildfires. Sometimes these people will have all of their cats end up at the SPCA. Sometimes they send a cat just because they are tired of the cat.
Back Yard Breeders normally can not afford to take their kittens to the Vet for vaccinations and regular veterinary exam's. Don't forget, this will be your life long kitten! It is not about the ability to give the vaccination purchased at some farm store, it is about caring enough about the kitten and its future with you.
Our goal in 2021 is to Aquire 2-3 lawyers and come up with a basic document a Buyer can request the breeder sign stating necessary standards of care. Simple standards like: 1.) Vaccinations given ( at home or by vet) , 2.)Environment ( not living 12-16 weeks in a cage till adoption) & socializing , & 3.) Genetic testing. This may be revised as we move forward and speak to more breeders & buyers.
We have to start somewhere ! The more negative crap other breeders throw at us only encourages this forward! Put the cat first!
Breeders do NOT need to be perfect. Cats don't need the Taj Mahal. They do need clean environments to have kittens, caring attention, and breeder goals to minimize diseases that limit and impair quality of life.
Know More Cats is dedicated to both learning and passing on information to the BUYER.
email us and let us know if you would like to add to this list.
Let us know if you feel we are on the right path.
Good breeders are out there!!!!!! Just slow down and take your time.
CLICK FREYA'S PIC. BELOW TO VIEW OPTIMAL SELECTION TEST.
CLICK KOSMOS PIC TO VIEW BASE PAWS GENETIC TEST.
WE SHARE THIS WITH YOU SO YOU CAN SEE WHAT INFORMATION THE TESTS HAVE AND HOW TO ASK QUESTIONS. THE TESTS ARE A BIT DIFFERENT. I TRIED BASE PAWS ONLY BECAUSE OPTIMAL SELECTION WAS SOLD OUT AND I WANTED TO KNOW GENETIC BACKGROUND ON NEW CATS & HAD NO IDEA WHEN NEW TESTS WOULD BE AVAILABLE. PLEASE ASK YOUR VET ABOUT THE INFORMATION IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS. OR ASK THE TESTING WEBSITE THEMSELF. WE HOPE THIS HELPS. WE WILL SHARE REGISTRATION PAPERS AS WELL SO YOU KNOW WHAT TICA, CFA, & WCF PAPERS LOOK LIKE.